I agree, the Libs have always been wedded to privatized development & why the Feds didn’t look at more public transport infrastructure spending (Especially bigger projects) for the stimulus money (And not just in NSW) is beyond me…

Firstly, I’m not sure if what I said previously about services from Rouse Hill to the city was clear? Peak hour services from Rouse Hill would run via the Northern Line to the city via Strathfield in the morning peak and back again in the afternoon peak. I only mentioned services running from Rouse Hill to the city.

The Ecotransit ideas for the 1st stage of a heavy rail link to Rouse Hill, the Epping to Parramatta link & the light rail link to Dulwich Hill & White Bay I like… I still believe & I’m starting to hear it more & more that one of the biggest problems/ challenges that the existing Cityrail system faces is capacity/ overcrowding & congestion on the Western Line to/from & through the Sydney CBD. This also has a knock on effect especially for Western Line station platforms within the Sydney CBD. Commuters from other lines are increasingly struggling to get onto trains during the morning peak to get to North Sydney, St Leonards & Chatswood & vice versa in the afternoon peak. I don’t think you need a 2nd harbour crossing for at least 20-25 years, maybe even longer if you address the Western Line problem. My proposal allows commuters from Western Sydney to get to Chatswood, St Leonards and with a new link to Victoria Cross (North Sydney) quickly from Parramatta in the morning peak & vice versa in the afternoon peak. For the first time you have a Cityrail line that is not Sydney CBD centric. This will reduce overcrowding on the Western Line. Some services and all non peak hours services would also run from Rouse Hill to Victoria Cross (North Sydney) via the Epping to Chatswood Rail Link with commuters outside of peak hour changing at Epping to get to the city via Northern Line services or at Chatswood or St Leonards to get to the city via North Shore Line services and vice versa going the other way. Building the West Metro to Westmead will also further reduce overcrowding. The CBD Metro as an add on to the West Metro is vital as it provides stations within the Sydney CBD at Central, Town Hall Square, Martin Place and Wynyard. Personally I think it would have been better going to, & terminating at Circular Quay after Martin Place but with stabling, maintenance & a control centre required I guess that’s why it then proceeds to Pyrmont & Rozelle. Either way I think it’s a good start to an extensive metro system & I’m sure one day it will be extended from Rozelle to at least the new Cityrail station at Macquarie Park.

I’m not a fan of an extensive tram system within inner Sydney so I might seem to be a bit bias with my response. A tram link from Green Square to Central would be problematic because of the existing roads this system would have to use. The area definitely has the densities to support a tram system but I think a loop to the existing heavy rail station at Green Square would be a better idea. Trams on George St unless you get rid of all the buses will also be problematic. I really cannot see this happening in the short term. I think if you want to support Barangaroo & the Western Corridor of the Sydney CBD trams would work better running down the full length of Sussex St especially when you look at the spatial fields from the existing Cityrail system and the currently proposed CBD/ West Metro alignment.

PS: Wow — the system didn’t spam me!

In reply to your reply to Russell…

Its not that Sydney needs a metro first because other cities have metro’s. After 40-50 years of neglect by successive governments we need a massive public transport building injection. The money needs to be found/ borrowed. The CBD Metro is a piece in a puzzle of about 6 major projects that need to be built over the next 10-15 years… It’s no good completing just one and thinking that the job is done. The order in which these projects are completed is unavoidably politically motivated with the current government favouring a CBD Metro & West Metro. The opposition favouring the Northwest Rail Link. As part of my submission to the Sydney Morning Heralds Transport Enquiry this is what I believe needs to happen over the next 10-15 years and why… After so many years of neglect the order in which they are built is irrelevant & all serve different purposes of urgent need.

Sydney’s north west needs a rail link but for it to be affective and work it needs to be built in conjunction with a Chatswood to Victoria Cross (North Sydney) Link via St Leonards for additional slot spaces and the Epping to Parramatta Link so commuters from Western Sydney have an alternative route to Chatswood, St Leonards and North Sydney. This would include quadruplication of track between Chatswood and St Leonards and a new tunnel and underground station at Victoria Cross (North Sydney) where trains would terminate with the possibility of an underground station at Crows Nest and a tunnel from Epping to the Carlingford Line, then duplication of track to Camelia and a tunnel to Parramatta with a new underground station at Parramatta. Trains would terminate at Parramatta. This would create the “Macquarie Line” with trains running from Parramatta and Rouse Hill via Epping to Victoria Cross (North Sydney). This is vital to reduce overcrowding on the Western Line and would also relieve overcrowding on the Western Line at the main CBD stations of Central, Town Hall and Wynyard. It would also allow/ justify peak hour services from Rouse Hill to run via the Northern Line to the city via Strathfield and push back the second harbour crossing by at least another 20-25 years. The CBD Metro/ West Metro from Rozelle to Westmead via Central as a first stage of an extensive metro system for Sydney would further reduce overcrowding on the Western Line (Sydney’s busiest corridor) especially at Strathfield and Burwood as the majority of commuters at these stations will change modes and start using the metro to get to/from the city. It would also further relieve overcrowding in the CBD at Central, Town Hall, Martin Place and Wynyard. As a result this would further allow/ justify slot spaces for peak hour services from Rouse Hill to run via the Northern Line to the city via Strathfield. The CBD/ West Metro would also open up new spatial fields at Rozelle, White Bay, Pyrmont, Sydney University/ Broadway, Camperdown, Leichhardt, Five Dock and Silverwater and introduce Sydney to this new mode of transport. The light rail line from Lilyfield to Hurlstone Park should be extended as soon as possible. This is a quick win for public transport in the inner west. This line should also be extended from Rozelle Bay around White Bay to the current wharf 5 or 6 of the Conaust Container Terminal when this area is redeveloped but instead of competing against the CBD Metro I would re-route it so it feeds the CBD Metro at the White Bay Station with the current line running from Central to White Bay (After Rozelle Bay is would be re-routed north to White Bay) and the line from Dulwich Hill running to White Bay after Lilyfield. This line would not go directly to the city. This would create a light rail hub at White Bay. Apart from this there is no scope/ need for an extensive inner Sydney tram network. The South-West Rail Link is out of scope as this area is still predominately green field land and will not need to be built for at least another 15 years as long as sufficient money is spent now to reserve a suitable corridor…

MG replies here (because the system spams me):

Wow, that’s a headful of information, and seems much better thought-out than I gather the CBD Metro proposal was before it was announced. However I have less confidence that “the money will be found/borrowed” and, pending further examination of your post, suggest that a Liberal government will be wedded to privatised development (the big hole in their platform, so to speak). The Feds are broke after borrowing the stimulus money and NSW is broke anyway. In that light, I wonder what you think of the following:

Ecotransit research estimates that the $5.3B allocated to the Sydney to Rozelle metro could finance the construction of stage 1 of the heavy rail link to Castle Hill ($700M), plus the South west rail link ($1.36B), plus the Parramatta to Epping rail link ($2.2B), plus light rail extensions to Dulwich Hill, White Bay, Barangaroo and Green Square ($500M), plus $500M change to improve current CityRail services;

I’ll be asking what the planners say about your analysis — thanks for the input.

Regards, MG

I’ve enjoyed reading your posts… You will be missed…

MG, you may be or may not be happy to know (or not even care!) that this is my last post to this site. I am an inner city person and my concerns are those of the inner city and the inner west. I did once feel that City Hub and City News reflected those interests and concerns, but that is no longer the case.

You have in you reply, highlighted that. Your focus in this debate, and this is particularly true of the inner west Independent, is almost wholly centered around the transport needs of outer west of Sydney. I don’t doubt they are pressing. But I don’t go there, and neither interestingly, does City News.

I was reading David Penberthy in the Punch this morning, once again arguing for the needs of outer west Sydney. Its something which he did constantly (and with style) while at the Tele. I’m not approving of the rest of his views or anything, just noting that his are, on this issue, identical to those of City News. For the Tele and News Ltd, that positioning makes sense. Buggered if I know what City News is on about anymore but I guess I don’t really care that much.

And Penbo is a lot more interesting to read. Ciao MG, I’ve enjoyed debating and discussing the Metro and other things with you and other contributors to this site. But I won’t any more.

My interests are in infrastructure/ transport planning etc; an unfortunate, ugly, unavoidable part of this process is the politics of it all… I am pro metro because I believe Sydney is at a point now where it needs to start building a comprehensive metro system. Not just cheap, nasty, bandage solutions like we constantly hear from this action group & that self interest group pushing their own agenda’s most of which have no scope past 20 years… I’m sick of returning from overseas trips where I have seen world’s best practice including cities in the USA, Europe & China only to see the run down, dilapidated, rubbish that is Sydney. Do you know that even in India a supposedly third world country they are building comprehensive metro systems! So why do we have all the BS when it comes to doing it in Sydney? I’ll try and answer your political questions but I really don’t know…

1.Not sure about it being a plot against right wing Labor but Michael Costa has always been opposed to public transport infrastructure. I think that’s just part of who he is.
2.Why would Labor want to crush the Unions? Isn’t this part of who they represent?
3.Don’t know… I did read an article during week where they said its gaining momentum. Definitely something to keep an eye on if that interests you…
4.I think as with religion you either love or hate light rail… But let’s get the definition right first… Light rail runs on a separated track where it doesn’t need to give way to pedestrians, traffic and has its own right of way. Trams on the other hand are in a shared zone and have to compete with pedestrians, traffic and do not necessarily have right of way. So with this definition is it fair to say that Sydney has limited opportunity for light rail? What these action groups & small interest groups are really talking about is bringing back trams & that is what I’m against. It will do nothing accept replace current buses with trams. There is no doubt that a light rail link from Lilyfield to Dulwich Hill along the old goods line and an extension from Rozelle Bay around White Bay to the current wharf 5 or 6 of the Conaust Container Terminal when this area is redeveloped makes good sense & definitely a quick win for public transport but an extensive inner Sydney tram network? This will achieve nothing… The only thing that will save Sydney now is a comprehensive metro system which complements the existing Cityrail system…

PS: And I don’t work for the Sydney Metro Authority either…

Reply: Huh, I can’t reply because the system thinks my posts are spam. So I’m editing into this post.

Labor wanting to crush unions? So The Sydney Morning Herald reports. I don’t know why you are surprised at anything the right does. The same people want to privatise everything partly for the same reason — witness Frank Sartor’s contract-based makeover of City Council. And the rail unions are pretty crook.

I am not convinced by the argument that ‘Sydney needs a Metro first because other cities have a Metro’. I love Metro. I could ride the London Underground all day. But do these other cities have vast swathes of sprawling hinterland with no rail at all, their residents forced to pay $hundreds a week in road tolls while polluting the air? It’s clear to me fixing that for less money has priority over a CBD Metro that hardly anyone will use and will cost more. Your Metro ideals assume that NSW has money to spend. No it doesn’t.

Metro suits dense tight urban areas. Heavy rail suits Rouse Hill and Campbelltown, and will provide a second harbour crossing to ease the Bridge bottleneck and boost heavy rail 50%.

After that lot is in place, then we’ll need a Metro.

As for the short journey times on a Metro, I can only quote the low passenger predictions to counter that. And you ignore light rail’s far greater frequency of stops in the cbd, and having to go 100 feet underground to get on one of the three-only Metro stops, and its ability to quickly spread to several branch feeders which will reduce both cars and buses.

And the vested interests you claim, Russell — they don’t exist. Or is Jamie Parker sponsoring the SMH, all the transport planners and Four Corners as well and Rupert Murdoch? Or is the Metro just a bad idea right now?

MG

Rozelle to Martin Place (The middle of the city) in 6 minutes.
Rozelle to Sydney University in 12 minutes.
Leichhardt to Martin Place (The middle of the city) in 9 minutes.
Leichhardt to Sydney University in 3 minutes.
Leichardt to Olympic Park in 11 minutes.
Leichhardt to Parramatta in 18 minutes.

I think it is blatantly obvious why Clover Moore is supporting a metro system and as a resident of Pyrmont she’s got my vote.